996TT Turbo upgrade
Discussion
...The thing I'd like to see is a parts list, surely there's a 'default' path by the time you get over 550bhp odd, so do US/German tuners use the same parts? I know x makes exhausts better than y's and this turbo's got the latest fancy blah blah, if its down to parts, then lets here about it. Or are we talking map alchemy
Dyno figures are nice, but every time some one doesn't agree, all you hear is tons of reason WHY those figures aren't right.. What you need to agree is a test that all tuners are happy with...
We rarely here of bad tunes resulting in death to the engine so they must all be doing pretty good?
Marty's right, once you're past a real monkey's worth of bhp it's bragging rights and on road differentials incremental and hugely expensive to extract efficiently/reliably.
I'm still on stock internals and bar brakes, clutch, demi roll cage and suspension upgrades am running what Von Fearnsawitz assures me is a reasonably effeminate, holding map.
The car is so well balanced and resolved of set-up (c/o Andy,the KWs and egenral geo) that tbh, we both wonder whether there's any point doing the old beetle thing of conrods, uber coolers et al?
I honestly think I'd rather buy a GT3 with the money!
I'm still on stock internals and bar brakes, clutch, demi roll cage and suspension upgrades am running what Von Fearnsawitz assures me is a reasonably effeminate, holding map.
The car is so well balanced and resolved of set-up (c/o Andy,the KWs and egenral geo) that tbh, we both wonder whether there's any point doing the old beetle thing of conrods, uber coolers et al?
I honestly think I'd rather buy a GT3 with the money!
TB993tt said:
Does the Mustang graph I posted above not make you feel a little er.... uncomfortable ? are those EVO hp still 700 despite performing like 550 ? Trying to use "200 dyno pulls" as a measure of anything ? Go watch a Maha dyno pull with the bumpers off then you will start to learn..
In fact if you go to Manthey in Germany and have your car power tested you will see the truth re how much power you have - If you would like a wager on how much power you get from Manthey I am up for a bet.... I say less than 550PS DIN - do you want to win some money and get a humble apology ?
Clearly that must have been WHP.In fact if you go to Manthey in Germany and have your car power tested you will see the truth re how much power you have - If you would like a wager on how much power you get from Manthey I am up for a bet.... I say less than 550PS DIN - do you want to win some money and get a humble apology
?I don't know what having the bumpers off has anything do do with anything. If you're so impressed by a car with the rear bumper off, like it's some great technical feat, then I'm thrilled for you. Sounds to me like taking the rear bumper off and force-feeding the intercoolers is anything BUT simulating "real world" conditions.,..
Sorry, sold my car in July (unfortunately a RHD car would have done me no good here in NYC) otherwise I'd be happy to take you up on the offer. Next one I get into, I'll happily take that bet with you.
Here's a dyno from one of the guys today for his new EVO780 kit. 685whp would translate into 806hp at the crank if you used a 15% correction factor for drivetrain loss (it's not higher as he converted to RWD). By my calculations, it looks like EVOMS has exceeded their hp claims for their kit.
Look around a bit and you'll see that this is fairly common.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot to add. These numbers were accomplished on 93 octane pump gas (the owner doesn't have access to race gas where he lives). North American 93 octane would be the equivalent to about 97 RON there (but it's definitely lower overall quality here).
Edited by BLKROKT on Sunday 8th March 06:38
I post a mustang dyno showing one of the "800hp" kits which you believe in I then tell you about the road test in a magazine where this very car is shown to be performing like a 550hp car and you reply showing another 800hp car, same company and same brand of dyno..... you are taking the p!ss aren't you ?
Maha LPS dynos are rolling road types but they have a setting for turbo Porsche motors, they load much higher than other brands (hence why the rear bumber has to come off - so it doesn't melt ! ) and on 997 VTG cars actually give peak torque where it should be at ~3000rpm unlike all the other machines, Jean's numbers were measured DIN at the flywheeel.
?Maha LPS dynos are rolling road types but they have a setting for turbo Porsche motors, they load much higher than other brands (hence why the rear bumber has to come off - so it doesn't melt ! ) and on 997 VTG cars actually give peak torque where it should be at ~3000rpm unlike all the other machines, Jean's numbers were measured DIN at the flywheeel.
Whatever. Nothing will ever be good enough for you Toby. No amount of verified dyno runs, performance times, or craftsmanship. Keep putting down other tuners and riding whatever German tuner dick you think is best. Thankfully there are a lot more satisfied owners out there as a result of these tuners you constantly discredit. Obviously you know more than all of them combined. Unbelievable.
996TT_STEVO said:
JBL & Toby... seriously why have you guys got it in for Jim... this is really sad behaviour.
How have i got it in for Jim? If you're referring to the boost thread, I answered a question and he called me a retared, he carried on in the same vein through the tread posting silly pictures and spouting horse s
t, i thought i was quite nice to him.My comment in this thread wasn't abusive either, he is quite happy to jump all over Brett when he's talking crap, i can't just keep quiet when he's doing the same just because "he's a nice guy". The ammount of work required to build a 1000bhp flat 6 would be staggering, that's more than the 9ff GT9, and with the stock block and a stand alone. Anybody with even an ounce of common sense would see this is utter drivel.
Jim, you clearly believe the numbers you're quoting, and that is fine, an ex girlfriend of mine actually believed in fairies (she was hot so it didn't matter). But don't get offended when you are called out on them, and Steve, chill out
I'm not offended, really. I enjoy these debates as I certainly learn from them, and I think it betters the community as a whole to get this information out. No worries mate.
Back to what I believe in. I believe in numbers posted by respected tuners, backed up by dyno runs and/or performance times. I have not exaggerated anything here in the least. The 1000hp 997TT on the stock block has all of the data posted in this thread: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/1...
This car ran 195mph in the standing mile, 9.79@147mph in the 1/4 mile, 60-130mph in 4.86 sec, and 803rwhp on the dyno:
I'm not making this stuff up. These times, and many others like it, are witnessed by many people. They're not done out on some backroad in the country but on NHRA sanctioned tracks, and at organized events like The Texas Mile. This is real and I'm just relaying the info - I have no stake in this. I'm just trying to show that there's more to the Porsche tuning world than RS Tuning, Mantheny, and DMS. And some would even say better.
Cheers
Back to what I believe in. I believe in numbers posted by respected tuners, backed up by dyno runs and/or performance times. I have not exaggerated anything here in the least. The 1000hp 997TT on the stock block has all of the data posted in this thread: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/1...
This car ran 195mph in the standing mile, 9.79@147mph in the 1/4 mile, 60-130mph in 4.86 sec, and 803rwhp on the dyno:
I'm not making this stuff up. These times, and many others like it, are witnessed by many people. They're not done out on some backroad in the country but on NHRA sanctioned tracks, and at organized events like The Texas Mile. This is real and I'm just relaying the info - I have no stake in this. I'm just trying to show that there's more to the Porsche tuning world than RS Tuning, Mantheny, and DMS. And some would even say better.
Cheers
Basically the problem with this thread is people are quoting BHP figures without the appropriate Boyles law numbers. BHP is meaningless as a number, as it requires the standards under which it has been achieved. Now we know chassis dynos can't generate enough load for long enough, and hence Boyels law numbers are effected. We also know that Porsche bhp numbers are a minimum BHP figure that will be achieved over a number of adverse conditions (wrt boyles law), and most tuners just tune for head-line figures. One well known UK "tuner" told me I had 640bhp, (I was in the car when it was being dyno'd), a dyno dynamics RR latter confirmed 435bhp, and the engine dyno less again. The difference was load and length of the dyno run. At JUDD we used an intercooler bath to control AIT temps and hence map across a number of conditions that are tightly controlled, fully loaded and of extreme lenght (wrt run time). Im sure that the USA cars are bloody quick, but we have to compare like with like. I'm sure we'll have the chance to VMAX some of these cars head-head and all will be revealed.
UV, nice post and gets to the heart of this issue.
The big hp US engines may be the answer for those wanting massive burst of acceleration for 1/4mile and 60-130+ but they WILL be subject to the same stresses as a properly built "Autobahn" high hp car so when they have had X hours of Y stress they will need ££££ rebuild....
Other areas which are very subjective and one only really finds out when you get to drive such a car is the civility of the engine. The expensive Euro engines (not usually 9ffs which are more whizz bang)have very broad torque curves and factory (or better) throttle response which makes the actual day to day driving experience so much nicer - ask anyone who has driven/been in my RS tuned 993 (ask the boys at Malton) it is a beautiful "creamy" engine which delivers on many levels - you just can't get this with a "whiz bang" high boost jobbie
The 1000hp bolt on car reffered to by BLKRKT above IMO encapuslates the way a lot of guys in the US tune these cars, taking the stock block to the limit using massive turbos/headers/intercoolers and boost then using a stad alone ECU to try and bring it all together. Yes it was/is (is it still in one piece ?) very fast but on the "Texas Mile" run it was cutting out at 195mph - that is ZERO power at 195mph in 6th, not 1000hp but ZERO.... Horses for courses... BTW even that "bolt on" is not cheap ~$50K
The big hp US engines may be the answer for those wanting massive burst of acceleration for 1/4mile and 60-130+ but they WILL be subject to the same stresses as a properly built "Autobahn" high hp car so when they have had X hours of Y stress they will need ££££ rebuild....
Other areas which are very subjective and one only really finds out when you get to drive such a car is the civility of the engine. The expensive Euro engines (not usually 9ffs which are more whizz bang)have very broad torque curves and factory (or better) throttle response which makes the actual day to day driving experience so much nicer - ask anyone who has driven/been in my RS tuned 993 (ask the boys at Malton) it is a beautiful "creamy" engine which delivers on many levels - you just can't get this with a "whiz bang" high boost jobbie
The 1000hp bolt on car reffered to by BLKRKT above IMO encapuslates the way a lot of guys in the US tune these cars, taking the stock block to the limit using massive turbos/headers/intercoolers and boost then using a stad alone ECU to try and bring it all together. Yes it was/is (is it still in one piece ?) very fast but on the "Texas Mile" run it was cutting out at 195mph - that is ZERO power at 195mph in 6th, not 1000hp but ZERO.... Horses for courses... BTW even that "bolt on" is not cheap ~$50K
Edited by TB993tt on Monday 9th March 09:50
Toby, even you know that the US tuners build their engines once past the 650hp mark. The above was just a demonstration of the limits being pushed currently (it was still in development when it went to the Texas Mile if you read the thread), while you guys are talking about massive 600hp numbers being produced by your German tuners. There are at least a dozen Proto/Evoms 1000hp creations running around with fully-built motors, and running similar times as above.
Just illustrating that there are more choices for those of us who don't do full-throttle 30min long 200mph Autobahn runs every day.
Just illustrating that there are more choices for those of us who don't do full-throttle 30min long 200mph Autobahn runs every day.
BLKROKT said:
Just illustrating that there are more choices for those of us who don't do full-throttle 30min long 200mph Autobahn runs every day.
That is a very fair and valid point.... its just sorting the good from the bad. I think we agree Proto are probably the best and of course UMW, Stephen at Imagine knows the score, AWE also produce decent bolt ons but the rest seem to be chancers attracted by the Porsche tax (as you called it )Check out this new "tuner"
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/997-turbo-fo...
Yikes! 
That dyno graph looks like it was fabricated in MS Paint lol! There are punters everywhere who will try to get in on the Porsche tax. In the UK you have more than a couple. Still reading through the post - interesting.
Since you're active on RL, then surely you know of all these other high hp Porsches I spoeak of (Scott, Markski, VR Alex, Tym, Chad, JoewinTT, etc). And you also know there have been no catastrophic engine failures as a result of these US tuner packages. And you also must be aware of all of the track time, and 1/4-mile and 60-130 times being run. So what's our issue again?
I think we finally agree on something! I'd also put Tym Switzer, Evoms, and GMG in the category above of most-trusted tuners. These guys are all making huge hp these days man, and in a highly-durable package. Stephen at Imagine helped me out with my build, and he's one of the most knowledgable guys out there.
That dyno graph looks like it was fabricated in MS Paint lol! There are punters everywhere who will try to get in on the Porsche tax. In the UK you have more than a couple. Still reading through the post - interesting.Since you're active on RL, then surely you know of all these other high hp Porsches I spoeak of (Scott, Markski, VR Alex, Tym, Chad, JoewinTT, etc). And you also know there have been no catastrophic engine failures as a result of these US tuner packages. And you also must be aware of all of the track time, and 1/4-mile and 60-130 times being run. So what's our issue again?
I think we finally agree on something! I'd also put Tym Switzer, Evoms, and GMG in the category above of most-trusted tuners. These guys are all making huge hp these days man, and in a highly-durable package. Stephen at Imagine helped me out with my build, and he's one of the most knowledgable guys out there.
I guess the crux of my "beef" apart from enjoying a bit of a tech debate is that I am pondering spending money and it just pisses me off when I see the advert below.
If I listened to your mantra it would be a no brainer - 10K Dollars for 649PS/880NM job done awesome value compared to using my tried and trusted Germans who offer 600PS/787NM for equiv 15K Dollars - which engine will be the best (fastest, most reliable, best throttle response, best economy, highest top speed etc)
My experience tells me to stick with the Germans - you are arguing differently.....
If I listened to your mantra it would be a no brainer - 10K Dollars for 649PS/880NM job done awesome value compared to using my tried and trusted Germans who offer 600PS/787NM for equiv 15K Dollars - which engine will be the best (fastest, most reliable, best throttle response, best economy, highest top speed etc)
My experience tells me to stick with the Germans - you are arguing differently.....
BLKROKT said:
Whatever. Nothing will ever be good enough for you Toby. No amount of verified dyno runs, performance times, or craftsmanship. Keep putting down other tuners and riding whatever German tuner dick you think is best. Thankfully there are a lot more satisfied owners out there as a result of these tuners you constantly discredit. Obviously you know more than all of them combined. Unbelievable.
No, just no.The little credibility you had evaporated much like the 806hp you claim after 2 mins of WOT.
/golfclap
edit: I am of course referring to the "dick" comment you have made twice. An obsession is hard to break.
Edited by christer on Monday 9th March 16:11
Edited by christer on Monday 9th March 16:12
Edited by christer on Monday 9th March 16:12
christer said:
No, just no.
The little credibility you had evaporated much like the 806hp you claim after 2 mins of WOT.
/golfclap
edit: I am of course referring to the "dick" comment you have made twice. An obsession is hard to break.
You edited that 3 times - wow, sure takes a lot of brain power for you to make such an astute statement.The little credibility you had evaporated much like the 806hp you claim after 2 mins of WOT.
/golfclap
edit: I am of course referring to the "dick" comment you have made twice. An obsession is hard to break.
Go back to lurking troll.
The claim I made is backed up, and is not my claim but are numbers PROVEN by dozens of people who track their cars regularly.
TB993tt said:
I guess the crux of my "beef" apart from enjoying a bit of a tech debate is that I am pondering spending money and it just pisses me off when I see the advert below.
If I listened to your mantra it would be a no brainer - 10K Dollars for 649PS/880NM job done awesome value compared to using my tried and trusted Germans who offer 600PS/787NM for equiv 15K Dollars - which engine will be the best (fastest, most reliable, best throttle response, best economy, highest top speed etc)
My experience tells me to stick with the Germans - you are arguing differently.....
Why does that piss you off? Can I ask what parts your tuner of choice would include in the kit you're considering? 100hp gain is not diffult to attain with the package you highlighted by EVOMS - programming, filter, exhaust, headers. Seems perfectly reasonable no?If I listened to your mantra it would be a no brainer - 10K Dollars for 649PS/880NM job done awesome value compared to using my tried and trusted Germans who offer 600PS/787NM for equiv 15K Dollars - which engine will be the best (fastest, most reliable, best throttle response, best economy, highest top speed etc)
My experience tells me to stick with the Germans - you are arguing differently.....
Was there not a USA "Rule of thumb" on terminal speed on streetable cars that equated to actual BHP ?
Something like 114 MPH Terminal needed 400 BHP and for every 10 MPH higher terminal another 100 BHP was required.
So at 147 MPH on the Evoms 1000 BHP car that kinda works out at 740 BHP or so ?
Not a fan of Evoms but 147 MPH on pump gas is impressive. However, whether it would stay together for a 7m 40 lap of the Nurburgring or a 100 mile flat out run is a different matter. Or even how nicely/poorly it drives.
As for Mustang inertia dyno's...think of a number and if you are not happy just add some. Not my favourite chassis dyno. Probably 15% + overread compared to a Dyno Dynamics.
Cheers
Allan
Something like 114 MPH Terminal needed 400 BHP and for every 10 MPH higher terminal another 100 BHP was required.
So at 147 MPH on the Evoms 1000 BHP car that kinda works out at 740 BHP or so ?
Not a fan of Evoms but 147 MPH on pump gas is impressive. However, whether it would stay together for a 7m 40 lap of the Nurburgring or a 100 mile flat out run is a different matter. Or even how nicely/poorly it drives.
As for Mustang inertia dyno's...think of a number and if you are not happy just add some. Not my favourite chassis dyno. Probably 15% + overread compared to a Dyno Dynamics.
Cheers
Allan
Edited by Chipchap on Monday 9th March 18:12
Edited by Chipchap on Monday 9th March 18:14
Chipchap said:
Was there not a USA "Rule of thumb" on terminal speed on streetable cars that equated to actual BHP ?
Something like 114 MPH Terminal needed 400 BHP and for every 10 MPH higher terminal another 100 BHP was required.
So at 147 MPH on the Evoms 1000 BHP car that kinda works out at 740 BHP or so ?
Not a fan of Evoms but 147 MPH on pump gas is impressive. However, whether it would stay together for a 7m 40 lap of the Nurburgring or a 100 mile flat out run is a different matter. Or even how nicely/poorly it drives.
As for Mustang inertia dyno's...think of a number and if you are not happy just add some. Not my favourite chassis dyno. Probably 15% + overread compared to a Dyno Dynamics.
Cheers
Allan
830hp according to http://www.dragtimes.com/horsepower-et-trap-speed-...Something like 114 MPH Terminal needed 400 BHP and for every 10 MPH higher terminal another 100 BHP was required.
So at 147 MPH on the Evoms 1000 BHP car that kinda works out at 740 BHP or so ?
Not a fan of Evoms but 147 MPH on pump gas is impressive. However, whether it would stay together for a 7m 40 lap of the Nurburgring or a 100 mile flat out run is a different matter. Or even how nicely/poorly it drives.
As for Mustang inertia dyno's...think of a number and if you are not happy just add some. Not my favourite chassis dyno. Probably 15% + overread compared to a Dyno Dynamics.
Cheers
Allan
Edited by Chipchap on Monday 9th March 18:12
Edited by Chipchap on Monday 9th March 18:14
Given we live in the UK (well most of PH does) when exactly are we going to achieve a 100 mile flat out run?
Hell, when could one achieve a 100km flat out run?
I recently drove back to Glasgow from Geneva sticking to the motorways through France, not very busy to say the least, but even still, I'd have struggled to manage more than 20km at full chat. Back in the UK, at best I could have roasted Manchester to Glasgow in the middle of the night but the corners on that road would prevent cornering at anything over 140 on a lot of stretches and even in the middle of the night you have roadworks and half asleep lorries.
Edited by emicen on Monday 9th March 18:46
Chipchap said:
Was there not a USA "Rule of thumb" on terminal speed on streetable cars that equated to actual BHP ?
Something like 114 MPH Terminal needed 400 BHP and for every 10 MPH higher terminal another 100 BHP was required.
So at 147 MPH on the Evoms 1000 BHP car that kinda works out at 740 BHP or so ?
Actually the formula is: horsepower = weight * (trap speed/234)^3. And it's only an estimate. Comes out to 892hp.Something like 114 MPH Terminal needed 400 BHP and for every 10 MPH higher terminal another 100 BHP was required.
So at 147 MPH on the Evoms 1000 BHP car that kinda works out at 740 BHP or so ?
Chipchap said:
Not a fan of Evoms but 147 MPH on pump gas is impressive. However, whether it would stay together for a 7m 40 lap of the Nurburgring or a 100 mile flat out run is a different matter. Or even how nicely/poorly it drives.
Fair enough, I'm not a huge fan either. But I don't know anyone who drives flat-out for 100 miles. That's just absurd. I - like most people - want something that's fun to drive on the street, and will perform at the track as well. If you're making a car to lap the Ring in record time, or to do 100 mile top speed runs, of course you will require greater levels of engineering. I don't know of anyone who makes these "packages" to withstand either situation, and would require a custom tune obviously. These are CONSUMER packages, and as such apply to what the majority of people need them to do.The fact is that they're running the 1/4 mile and 60-130 numbers regardless of what they pull on whatever dyno. That's all that matters, and proof enough of their potency.
Edited by BLKROKT on Monday 9th March 18:52
BLKROKT said:
Why does that piss you off? Can I ask what parts your tuner of choice would include in the kit you're considering? 100hp gain is not diffult to attain with the package you highlighted by EVOMS - programming, filter, exhaust, headers. Seems perfectly reasonable no?
It pisses me off because it is BS.... The components are similar apart from the cats and there is a clue in the cats, RS use 100 cell cats for the 600PS/787NM kit because the 200 cell ones (note EVO use the 200 cell Cargraphic/RS ones) will not flow enough for 600PS - the reason EVO et al use the 200 cell cats is because they cannot program to keep the CEL off which happens with 100 cells (because the extra flow goes out of the range programmed into the stock parameters).... So seems reasonable to you but the reality is Borghi & Saveri engine dyno measures the power/torque approx 49PS and 90NM less (even with the better cats)than the EVO claims.... Edited by TB993tt on Monday 9th March 18:55
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